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Helping Hackers - 18 Swing Theories    Back to Topics  Page: 1 of 68     
From: SundayBag (1 of 674)   8/18/2006 3:43:40 PM
To:
I currently have a book from a library by the #18 person on this list, Count Yogi....Five Simple Steps to Perfect Golf....he advocates hands behind the ball for ALL shots....any lies....be very loose...fluid...graceful....the book was written in '73...Yogi (Harry Hilary Frankenberg) died in '90 or '91 I believe...I had never heard of him until I came across his book in the golf section of library....it is interesting and he seems a character....colorful...brassy...self-promoter....I have tried his method, but the hands behind the ball on all shots seems odd to me and I can't quite embrace it....seems counter intuitive....I seem more consistent with traditional method of address, although I have hit some good shots with his method and with the driver it does seem to work as well or better than a traditional address for a driver....I don't know how good a golfer he really was, but if his claimed exploits are true, he was something else....:-)


http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200509secretofgolf1.html

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From: GAP (2 of 674)   8/20/2006 9:40:57 AM
To: SundayBag In response to Post 1
Yes, I know what you mean. I just had a pro at my golf course tell me to start pitching that way using the loft of the club. I asked him about the traditional advice and he just blew me off. With your hands behind the ball you can't hit down on it unless you change your swing, mid-swing.

I just re-read Hogan's Fundamentals and he tells you to keep the ball position fixed off the inside heel for every club, adjusting only your right foot. Most pros I've known don''t recommend this either.

I decided to try it yesterday just for the heck of it with my hands ahead of the ball and all my iron shots were the best I've ever hit.

I wish someone on this board could explain to me the discrepancies between the different swing theories in a way that is logical and easy to understand. I've only been playing a few years and find it very confusing.

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From: SundayBag (3 of 674)   8/20/2006 10:56:37 AM
To: GAP In response to Post 2
Well, I'm afraid that 'someone' isn't me!!...:-)....I find it all confusing too....but this 'season' (with much experimentation) I did find more consistency and solid shots with a fairly open stance and the ball (at least to my eye) just off the toe of my left foot and my left arm and the club virtually in a straight line....a 'y' leaning to the right if you were in front of me.....but I think as much, or more, than that I started standing closer to the ball and more upright....about a fist or hand-width separates the butt of club from my pants....on all shots....as I mentioned, the driver seems to work better, or at least as well, with the hands behind the ball....and the hands-behind seems to work better for me in the sand also, for some reason.....and all my irons (with a couple of wedge exceptions) are the same length.....and my fairway wood are all a same length also.....and I derive a lot of consistency from that, for example, I hit a 3-iron just like a 9-iron....I don't feel the three is 'different' and subconsciously put a different swing on it, etc.....BUT, all that said, I can often hit the same solid shots with above stance but with closed position....or with Count Yogi's method....or hands ahead....or ball in center of stance with butt of club pointing at my stomach...or ball just left of center....or ball about one ball-width off right toe....LOL!!!....so, I guess the 'lesson' here is that there are any number of ways to hit the ball....maybe it is more about rhythm...tempo....balance....confidence....I just swing back until my left shoulder is basically underneath my chin and then begin downswing....and I don't cock wrists...I think a LOT of problems occur at that transistion when you concern yourself with wrist-cock...getting to parallel....'full turn', blah, blah, blah.....I don't concern myself with getting into the 'slot', etc. because I don't feel I ever leave the 'slot'.....and I don't concern myself with not 'moving' my head at all, etc....then I basically just loosely look at the front (yes, the front) of the ball during the swing (something I heard Colin Montogmery say once) and have greatly improved my ball-striking this 'season'....so, if your Hogan method works, stay with it.....I mean, it doesn't matter if you do a back-flip as long as you meet the ball squarely...hit it flush....Count Yogi claimed that his success was due as much as anything to basically eliminating and ignoring virtually every teaching theory in golf and all the 'conventional' wisdom, etc....LOL!!!....that might be his greatest contribution to the game!!!...LOL!!!......his emphasis is more on a mental routine.....but I know what you are saying.....'very confusing' is an understatement!!...:-)....as opposed to the 'bomb and gouge' philosophy prevalent today, I still primarily see golf as a target game and try to play accordingly....accuracy is paramount.....sort of a version of the tortoise and hare fable....now, of course, not being a long-knocker, IF I could hit a drive 323-yards or something I might have a different outlook!!...:-)....my driver is 42"...steel shaft with smaller head, but I am much more consistent with it than the graphite-shafted, longer and larger-headed drivers I have tried.....good luck in finding your 'way' through the maze of golf 'instruction'...:-)
Edited 8/20/2006 11:45:00 AM by SundayBag

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From: Phoenix53 (4 of 674)   8/21/2006 5:31:18 AM
To: GAP In response to Post 2
I have Hogan's book still in my unpacked boxes after my recent move. I remember his ball position theory and that the elbows point to the hips at address. I'm a pretty good ball striker and have mixed many (Hogan, Nicklaus, Norman, Tiger, etc.) methods to arrive at my presently consistent swing (who knows about tomorrow.)

Hogan was a one-plane swinger before the term became popular and his 5 fundamentals work for the one plane swinger. I recall also that his explanation of the hips through impact was clearly wrong.

I play the driver only with my left elbow pointing at the target, for example and play all irons and fairway shots with the left elbow in a neutral point between the two (more toward the hip, actually) and the right elbow at the hip.

2 plane swingers are instructed to play the ball around the middle of the stance (mine is 1 ball ahead of center) and one plane swingers off or ahead of the front heel.

I'm not a believer in the importance of 1 or 2 plane theories but you must understand that Hogan was one plane and some things he said don't work for 2 planers. When you find a teacher, I think you must be sure that he understands the difference in swing theories (1 vs 2 plane) and doesn't for example, try to impart 1 plane theory to your instinctive 2 plane swing.

Good luck in unravelling the mystery. There's so many ways to hit a ball well and unfortunately more ways to do it poorly. The most important thing is to find what works for you and make it REPETITIVE.



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From: Yogimus Maximus (5 of 674)   4/19/2009 3:21:12 PM
To: SundayBag In response to Post 3
I am an expert on the Count Yogi Health & Golf Method. The Count never said to me to put the ball position ever that far forward, and it can move for certain types of lies or geological situatios but is always played 'MENTALLY' identical. It is a full (back-swing/follow-through) 'eliptical' single plane swing. That is why ball position can deviate for being struck earlier or later in the arch plane. It is a artistic technique that anyone, including the blind that yogi started playing golf and in tournaments can simply learn and adapt. And yes, Count Yogi (AKA) Harry Frankenberg (banned from tournaments for his Jewish last name) taught Ben Hogan in 1938-39 in which and after his instruction he then began to win. there is allot more to this beautiful, intelligent, scientific, powerful yet simple art form that could be all said in this post but I hope I was able to share and shed some light on the issue.

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From: Pickle. (6 of 674)   4/19/2009 3:34:13 PM
To: Yogimus Maximus In response to Post 5
I was fortunate to get a copy of Yogi's video (no sound) and copies of some articles and brochures through the mail. He seemed to have a very wristy putting and chipping stroke. I also thought his full swing also was wristy/flippy near impact. Was it?

Can you explain his elliptical swing more fully? Aren't all full swings elliptical?

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From: SundayBag (7 of 674)   4/19/2009 3:52:28 PM
To: Yogimus Maximus In response to Post 5
I figured this thread was dead...and I think in my post you refer to that I misstated ball off left toe when I meant right actually, but then almost any ball position has seemed to work at times...well, then Yogi's book is poorly written as that certainly is what I took from it...the left ball position, that is...even in one of the pics of a short stroke or chip the caption states the ball is played 'to the left'...and if the hands are always behind the ball on any shot or lie, as he clearly advocated, then that seems to me to dictate a leftish ball position or you have some awkward and virtually unworkable addresses...even with the ball in the center of your stance, the hands behind looks and feels odd to me...I wish the pics in the book had been more of 'head-on' shots, but the pics did seem to show a more left ball position from driver to wedge...yes, I know he stressed an 'infallible mental routine', but I don't recall him ever saying in the book that the ball could 'move' for certain lies or 'geological situations'...I also had trouble with sand shots and didn't feel that very short section in the book was helpful on that, even though initially it seemed to work somewhat but then it just went 'south' in the sand...and also I don't remember the phrase 'MENTALLY' identical in the book...and that means very little, if anything, to me...yes, certainly there is a mental component to golf, but there also is a physical one such as ball/hand position, address, swing, etc., etc...one doesn't have to over-complicate it, but there are physical realities to striking a golf ball as you would like...
Edited 4/19/2009 4:00:00 PM by SundayBag

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From: Pickle. (8 of 674)   4/19/2009 4:29:39 PM
To: SundayBag In response to Post 7
Let's hope Maximus will explain Yogi's method more fully.

BTW, to read about more swing theories, look at Peper's book, THE SECRET OF GOLF.

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From: SundayBag (9 of 674)   4/19/2009 6:08:38 PM
To: Pickle. In response to Post 8
Let's hope indeed...

I'm almost afraid to look at any more golf 'secrets'....:-)

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From: Pickle. (10 of 674)   4/19/2009 6:24:20 PM
To: SundayBag In response to Post 9
There are at least 46 in Peper's book.

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